Evaluation Kit & Tour

You asked

60 days is ridiculously short. I downloaded the eval kit right after it was announced. I installed it and tried a few obvious things out and then things got busy. I haven't been back to it since. I suspect that this isn't a very unusual thing.

Perhaps it is possible to download it as many times as I want. I don't know, I've been afraid to ask. I'm also afraid to try to uninstall it -- I've got this irrational fear that it is going to refuse to let me uninstall it because the license has expired.

Most products in the market have 30 day evaluations, I thought that was too short so we eventually compromised to 60 days. I don't think it is "ridiculously short" though.

The purpose of an "evaluation" is not free product and we're hoping organizations plan to evaluate and after the evaluation period do an upgrade, buy a license or take a PSDN subscription.

On case by case basis, the Account Manager might decide to extend the evaluation period but I do not think unlimited Evaluation downloads is an option. Still, don't be afraid to ask anything and be assured I also watched the other threads on open source, briefcase, etc.

Based on your previous email, I think I understand you still have an evaluation so does that mean you have not upgraded yours yet? Any specific reason?

Note: You should be able to uninstall the evaluation, even if the license is expired/evaluation period ended, if not, let me know and I log a bug.

To me, the "ridiculously short" part has to do with purpose. From the perspective of the consultant or developer who wants to check out and keep current with new features, really any expiration is undesirable. For them, the old (ancient?) test drive concept of having to do a dump and load after 10 server starts worked well because it was essentially a low cost perpetual license, albeit with an annoying "feature". But, I don't think that is the target of the current eval program, whether this standard download or an on request eval license. For this program the purpose is sales. And, by and large, in that context, if 60 days isn't long enough, then one probably isn't "ready" in the way that a salesperson wants a prospect to be ready. They're still kicking tires. When they are ready enough to commit resources to the test, then 60 days is probably enough for most cases. Doesn't help the person working on their own with other "day job" priorities, though.

Thomas,

If that's the case then what's the difference between Test Drive and an Eval license, 30 days ? And I think that making private developers pay is a penny wise pound foolish type arguments.

Bernard,

If the purpose is as you said "for anyone to get started with OpenEdge" maybe someone can walk us through that idea with a 60 days, one time installation ?

Does Progress really expect private developers, enthusiasts and college kids, if we're talking about PUP to pay the same prices as businesses ? how many of your personnal users (developers) buy a developement license, personally I've never met or personally heard of one ? We're not your customers we're your partners. Hopefully, we write good ABL programs, successfully implement and provide support for the applications to run. And yes, we do directly sell Progress products because we're the ones saying we need x licenses, Webspeed or any other setup, we do it all the time.

Keeping the same closed minded approach developers will run into Progress if they happen to run into Progress, by chance, developers and consultants will keep struggling, new technologies will take far longer to catch on no matter how much whitepapers and documentations you put out there. You want us to champion oe10 to our customers or companies but we don't know what it is. And its not something to simply dismiss but it does do alot to antagonize developers that have commited to Progress.

What ever you do, give it time. It takes a while for things to catch on, don't expect a quick return in a few month and if that doesn't happen pull the plug. The same thing with Sonic, give it time. Theres still alot to catch on but people will start using it if the option will still be there.

Message was edited by:

Alon Blich

If that's the case then what's the difference between Test Drive and an Eval license

The thing specifically being discussed here is the download which is available without having to make special arrangements. There will always be eval licenses also because someone needs special software to evaluate or they need to test it on something other than Windows.

And I think that making private developers pay is a penny wise pound foolish type arguments.

You can think that ... it is pretty clear by now that you do ... but you don't seem to realize that the purpose of these eval offerings is to make sales. Those consultants and developers working for a behind-the-times shop you keep talking about are generally not people who are meaningful sales prospects. They should be willing to buy their own license, but apparently they aren't. So, that's not this program.

Instead, to get what you want you need to convince PSC to offer perpetual, low cost licenses to individual developers. To convince them of that, you would first need to figure out why it is that this is going to increase sales. The constultants and contractors are working for people who already have Progress ... and so are the night-time students who work for a shop that isn't current. How will it increase PSC sales to give away licenses to them? It will help the individual, but not PSC. And, who qualifies? Do I? I am currently a one person corporation. So are a number of consultants and contractors. Do they fail to qualify just because they are corporations?

FWIW, I have been a partner since 1985, so I don't actually have the problem.

How will it increase PSC sales to give away licenses to them?

Presumably some portion of such licenses would be used by people who bootstrap themselves into becoming a partner with an application to sell.

It is said that more than one substantial partner did just that with the old Test Drive product -- so the notion is not pure fantasy.

One could just as easily ask what harm does it do to provide a perpetual free license to people who won't ever actually pay for one? Software is not a perishable good -- free copies of development licenses cost virtually nothing. If only one in a million results in a modestly sized partner then it was a good investment was it not?

Do they fail to qualify just because they are corporations?

An interesting question.

I've never really understood the logic behind PSDN's Premier subscription qualification. I may be weird in that I would happily pay for it but sadly PSC does not want my money because I'm "just" a lowly consultant. Apparently I'm the competition rather than a valued part of the Progress eco-system (I guess that explains the NDA's too now that I think about it...)

When it comes to downloading this kit with an eye to migration (as suggested by the choosen forum) there are some additional considerations.

Even an internal evaluation can take well over 60 days. Particularly if it is happening under semi-hostile conditions.

I can think of lots of situations where the technical people want to upgrade and are willing to do work to show that it is feasible and beneficial but where they need to do this "under the radar". Such projects often stop and start and take a long time to complete. A standard "eval" from PSC doesn't work for that and neither does a 60 day free download.

I'm pretty sure that the sales force is very aware that these cycles can take a long time -- years even; but that they are well worth it in the long run.

Another part of it is that migration is about a lot more than the pretty front end tools. People get really worried about their database and the server side of things. So a windows-only (or windows-centric) download really isn't sufficient either.

I think, a limited version makes alot of sense but IMO a limited feature version and not a time limited one would work better in this case.

The basic _edit.p editor, compiler, runtime that can only compile and run code for this type of version alot like the Developer Briefcase is well worth fighting for.

And a one agent Webspeed/Appserver if we want people to learn about n-tier applications and a single-user database, please

What ever it is it needs to be a simple, neat and practical one to put together.

Message was edited by:

Alon Blich

It is said that more than one substantial partner did just that with the old Test Drive product

That it may have happened once doesn't necessarily indicate that it is an effective strategy. While two people in a garage do occasionally produce substantial companies, two people in a garage with no funding rarely make it, so it is unlikely that the cost of a development license or two will make or break the prospects of the company. If Progress is the right choice for the development and deployment environment, it is the right choice, not because it might be free. If it was a question of a $100,000 buy-in, I could see it as an obstacle, but at $3600 for OEA, it just isn't a big deal for anyone that is serious.

So, for it to have no cost, this means you are providing no support and no upgrades, right?

So a windows-only (or windows-centric) download really isn't sufficient either.

Which is one of the reasons there are eval licenses for everything. You have to ask for it and present a reasonable case, but I've never had any problem.

For the record, a 4GL development license is only $2240.

Consumer end versions like Photoshop elements that I've got cost $100 or somewhere in that neighborhood and even that excludes plenty of people.

There are alot of developers and consultants that publish code, have side projects, participate in open source, offer advice online, trouble shoot and find solutions and do it all outside of work (mostly) besides not every company has a recent version. I've seen a few somewhat recent version 9 installation because of the now old OpenEdge licensing.

If you're talking about pirated copies that inevitably some people will resort to then that is certainly not an acceptable arrangement.

Message was edited by:

Alon Blich

I don't know what relevance the price of Photoshop Elements has ... unless you are going into the business of editing Photos, in which case you are a fool if you don't spring for CS and probably a bunch of add-ons. Even as a semi-pro (my stuff is published regularly, but I don't get paid for it), I bought CS and some add-ons in order to be able to do "real" work. I.e., if you want to do the work, buy the tools.

I know I can be naive but are we really arguing or you just winding me

Just kidding, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

If I am "winding you up", it isn't with the intention of annoying you, but rather with the intention of trying to help you focus on perspectives which will be meaningful to PSC. I suppose it isn't entirely unlike all the PEG and PSDN discussion about ChUI dynamic browse. In that case, I actually agree that PSC should do it, but the people who are complaining about them not having done it are mostly doing so in a way that won't increase the chances of it getting done.

In the present case I think it is important to realize:

1. Comparison of the eval download or test drive or whatever to various low cost or free development programs offered for other products is wasted effort because PSC is in a different market from those products.

2. The existing eval download and the former test drive are a program which is directed at making sales of licenses. While not strictly so, it is not entirely inappropriate to say that it is directed at selling meaningful site licenses, not one off copies of development tools. In that context, most of the current characteristics of the program are perfectly sensible as they are, especially since they are backed by exceptions and regular eval licenses as needed. The difficulties which an individual might have in scheduling enough time in a 60 day window mostly don't apply here because that sort of person isn't typically a sales prospect anyway. If they are, i.e., they have a product concept and a business plan and the resources to do something about it, then they almost certainly can focus enough to do the eval in 60 days and they almost certainly have the resources to purchase their development licenses ... or they aren't much of a sales prospect, are they?

3. What you and others are arguing for is free or low cost development licenses for individuals. Whatever the merits of that idea, it is really a separate concept or program from the existing eval download and needs different terms and conditions. To be really useful, it needs to be a perpetual license and it probably needs some form of support and a way to acquire upgrades. And, more importantly, there has to be some benefit to PSC. So, think about such a program. What is PSC going to get ... better trained people in the workforce? What is the benefit of that? How does it lead to more sales? What problems does it solve? And, what is the offer? Are you willing to pay support if you get the original license for less? Are you willing to accept a limited form of support in order not to have to pay a full support fee? How much less does the price of the license need to be? Free? Half price? 10% At what price level will most of the people targeted spend the money? If these people are actually serious, why aren't they willing to buy regular development licenses? These are the kind of issues that one needs to consider in putting together a program like this ... quite different issues than a program which is directed at making site sales by letting people try out the product for a little while.

Obviously, there are some points about this program oriented toward individual developers that I am skeptical about. One is why a serious person isn'w willing to spend $3600 on their career. Another is the what real benefit will be derived. But, I certainly wouldn't try to get in your way if you wanted to put together an argument for such a program and see if you can get anyone interested in it. But, recognize that you need good solid answers to these questions. Just recognizing that there is a certain community that has been asking for it for years isn't a persuasive argument.

Upgrades aren't really relevant to the cost issue, product development costs aren't increased by free copies.

Support is a reasonable point if support is being offered. But SFAIK there's no support being offered with the current eval kit.

I'm willing to spend serious money on an appropriate license. PSC, however, hasn't shown any interest in taking my money.

I could buy your "invest in the necessary tools" argument if PSC actually sold such tools to individuals. But they don't.

And even though I'm personally willing to spend money I still think that there is a place for something that is more in the spirit of Test Drive than the current eval product.

Neither $3,600 nor $2,400 is a realistic evaluation of startup license costs. Especially if one plans to pursue a development path that even vaguely resembles OERA.

And you dismiss garage startups far too readily.

product development costs aren't increased by free copies.

So, these developers should get free upgrades even though everyone else is paying for maintenance in order to be entitled to upgrades?

SFAIK there's no support being offered with the current eval kit.

And this works for a developer with a perpetual license? Maybe, but it is a question.

I'm willing to spend serious money on an appropriate license. PSC, however, hasn't

shown any interest in taking my money.

I assume this refers to limiting a PSDN subscription to partners? If so, I agree with you completely on that score. At the very worst they should have some kind of consulting partner program which merely vets that you are seriously using the tools to entitle you to participate. Maybe you should start a new thread on that topic and I could agree with you!

If there really was a link to upgrades and product development then one would think that there would be some sort of correlation between where the dollars come from (such as ChUI customers) and where the effort goes. And there wouldn't be any talk of "relicensing" and "it's a new product" when a new version rolls out.

start a new thread, I'll alert the AP folks @ Progress so they are aware (the're not technical so usually they do not track these forums)

Bernard,

Feel free to jump in any time and share your thoughts.

wow, many postings, that's good! Hoping others also have opinions too...

The current evaluation kits are not targeted to provide a cheap or free license to students, independent consultants or any enthousiasts. It's for evaluation purposes.

However, what I also call evaluation is if an existing customer develops with V9, doesn't know yet if they want to upgrade but simply wants to see if their app just runs on OE 10 (yes it does) and get familiar with the new capabilities or even a prospect who wants to get some sort of idea what this comprehensive OpenEdge platform is all about, registering and downloading is a way to get started, for anyone.

And, as been said already in the thread, if a "prospect" is serious enough, they should plan the evaluation and if the plan says they need to extend the evaluation period, I still have to meet the first sales that doesn't grant that (or provide products on other platforms for evaluation purposes).

The student can get licenses on their machine through their university through the PUP and in many countries the local subs (and some very close with the AP who need more people to) work with their local universities already, some are very successful by the way (we even have some of these students now working at Progress). The cost of $650 per university has never been a barrier and in many cases is "sponsered" anyway.

So, somehow, in some way, you would like to see a briefcase and/or testdrive alike in addition to the evaluation kits. I don't think just the copiler and _edit.p is enough, you would not want anyone to figur out themselves the dict/adm/navigator or even appbuilder from scratch.

I'll work on the idea...

So, somehow, in some way, you would like to see a

briefcase and/or testdrive alike in addition to the

evaluation kits. I don't think just the copiler and

_edit.p is enough, you would not want anyone to figur

out themselves the dict/adm/navigator or even

appbuilder from scratch.

I think there are two frustrating elements when you want to "try and download" something:

- some sites require you to register first before you can download and email a trial serialnumber. This forces you to enter a valid, "spammable" email address

- the sooner you get frustrated when testdriving a product, the sooner you will give up the effort. With "frustrated" I mean "not being able to do (simple) things". For an UML-product this might be creating a diagram and printing it, for a programming language this might be writing your first lines of code.

I don't know how this relates to Progress' briefcase, but I can see a problem when you start the 4GL editor and see an empty form. What next? I also understand that people are not familiar with setting up a database, since it's product specific (try to testdrive Oracle and setup your own demo database

I'll work on the idea...

One of my summer jobs when I was a kid, not too long ago, was taking calls for the city services (not sure on the exact term in English). Every once in a while we'd get someone that just would not let go and get rid of them with the usual "we're working on it", "it's our number one priority", "I've past your request on" and so on.

I go to university, I don't want to argue since our views are world apart and it wouldn't change a thing, but they'll start teaching courses in ABL when pigs fly. It works with other high tech companies not here.

Like I said and I don't have anything more to add and I don't believe writing a 30 page article about something that can be summed down to a sentense (gasp) is even though it may seem that it doesn't translate to immediate sales it's an investment in education and it is not a threat to sales. Hey, it's worked in the past, at least that's something we can agree on, maybe, just maybe it can work again.

Well, that was time well spent, it sure make me wonder why we bother at all.

Theo (or anyone else), please do me a favor, have a look at the tour, is that simple enough to get started?

We actually show you how to create your first db, add tables/fields, create your first project, first procedure, gen first prodataset, etc, etc. AND then the tour contains a Try-It (tutorial).

we require you to register for the eval as we do want to know who has the (temporary) license. Sorry, I hope you Progress doesn't send too much "spam"

And, as been said already in the thread, if a

"prospect" is serious enough, they should plan the

evaluation and if the plan says they need to extend

the evaluation period, I still have to meet the first

sales that doesn't grant that (or provide products on

other platforms for evaluation purposes).

I find this attitude rather unbelievable. I would think you'd want to make things as easy and persuasive as possible for people to use your products.

And here you're saying "if a prospect is serious enough" ?!?

PSC should be trying to convince buyers their products are the things to spend their hard-earned cash on to solve their pressing business problems. Not requiring prospects to be "Serious enough" to jump through all the PSC imposed hoops.

And, as been said already in the thread, if a

"prospect" is serious enough, they should plan the

evaluation and if the plan says they need to

extend

the evaluation period, I still have to meet the

first

sales that doesn't grant that (or provide products

on

other platforms for evaluation purposes).

I find this attitude rather unbelievable. I would

think you'd want to make things as easy and

persuasive as possible for people to use your

products.

And here you're saying "if a prospect is serious

enough" ?!?

PSC should be trying to convince buyers their

products are the things to spend their hard-earned

cash on to solve their pressing business problems.

Not requiring prospects to be "Serious enough" to

jump through all the PSC imposed hoops.

I couldn't agree more.

ok, not the best language I used, sorry, I believe the evaluation kits makes it easier for anyone to get started and we like to work closely with organisations who take the time to evaluate. The evaluation kit obviously doesn't cover all audiences or situations and yes, the more we can do to make it even more easier, at least we should try. And that's what I do here at Progess, (trying to) make it easier to adopt...

Tim, one of the first rules of sales is to make sure the prospect is serious enough before you waste effort on them. If you spend your time and energy chasing after tire kickers, you don't make many sales. My wife is an incredible salesperson who spent many years selling software to contractors and she had a keen sense of when people were ready and when they weren't. Sometimes she had to wait years for them to get ready, but meantime she was busy selling to those that were.

Which is why the eval should be setup to be effortless.

That way nobody wastes time on "tire kickers".

Creating hoops and gates just means that more people waste more time when tire kickers need to kick down the door to get to the tires...

No, Tom, it isn't just a question of wasting time ... sorry I put the emphasis there. It is a question of good sales practice. If someone isn't ready to make a buying decision, then they do exactly what you did, download the eval, put in a little time, and then get distracted. If anything about that process was frustrating or disappointing or confusing, then one has actually lessened the likelihood of a sale, even if it was something simple that would have been erased with a little more work. Theresa made record sales by tactics that had people practically begging for the demo, ready to write a check the minute the demo confirmed what they already expected. Give that demo too early and you have to give it again and again and one bad impression and they might not ask again.

I don't believe in "one approach fits all" solutions.

I don't think that PSC does either -- that's why Progress has:

1) APs.

2) A direct sales force.

3) Evaluation downloads.

4) Has a shopping basket on the web site and takes credit cards for licenses. (Oops! That's the imaginary Progress sales channel... sorry!)

Different audiences respond to different approaches. In my view insisting that everyone needs to be properly serious closes the door on opportunities and is a bad fit for a downloadable evaluation -- such an approach may make sense for a sales force but IMHO it is badly out of tune with the reasons that people download evaluations. FWIW I expect that many people download evaluations primarily because they do not want to be pestered by sales people -- no matter how amazing their demos are. Or maybe because they are such amazing demos

A Progress eval isn't like downloading a series of FTP shareware packages to try out before sending in your $15 ... it takes significant effort and investment to explore and understand what is there. You don't want people downloading it and having the kind experience people had with Briefcase where they never got it working. You don't want them downloading it, trying a couple simple things, and then setting it aside for a couple of months because, even if everything went smoothly, they probably didn't do anything that would get them impressed so they are left with not much of an impression. And, if there was something they didn't understand or didn't quite work, then they are left with a bad impression and may never come back to find out whether it was accurate or not.

To me, do it yourself evals are great for low cost products where one really can't afford to engage in any one and one sales, but they are a potential danger for any complex product because some education is required before one understands what is good and different about the product. Setting up sports2000 and typing in FOR EACH CUSTOMER may impress someone who has only ever written in C, but it isn't going to impress any serious IT person looking for an enterprise product. How do you guide someone to self-discover just exactly how powerful the full Progress family can be?

For one thing I suspect that it takes far more than 60 days...

But, again, I disagree with your one size fits all approach. But it's getting religious so I guess it's time to move on.

How do you guide someone to self-discover just exactly how powerful the full

Progress family can be?

Now, THAT is where I like to get your input.

We are trying to do just THAT with the OpenEdge Tour.

The OpenEdge Tour is packaged in the OpenEdge Evaluation Kit and as a seperate download on http://www.psdn.com/library/entry.jspa?entryID=1131

The Tour is a multi-media overview of OpenEdge, OpenEdge Architect and ABL. The Tour also contains Try-It, a mini tutorial people can use and try some examples themselves with the evaluation of OpenEdge Architect in the OpenEdge Evaluation Kit. Again, a starting point for learning and experiencing the values of OpenEdge...

Since the launch at Echange 2006, we have hundreds of registrations per month for the evaluation kit and many, many more downloads of the Tour. Since day one, it's in the list of most viewed pages on PSDN Online. And not only existing customers so, it's working...

The current OpenEdge Tour is the first Tour we provided and is potentialy the first of a series. We already planned an upgrade to both evaluation and tour for 10.1B

The Tour is specifically created for people new to OpenEdge 10, Architect and ABL, most of the people active on the PSDN Online forums already have experience with this, still, I would really appreciate if you take a look at it and provide feedback the the existing OpenEdge Tour:

- do you like the format (look & feel, browser based, etc)?

- do you like the speed, too slow, too fast, just right?

- what other topics do like to see covered

- what other products should we cover (OpenEdge but also other PSC products)

The Sonic Evaluation Kit contains the Sonic 7 Workbench and a document how to configure OE/Sonic, would a Tour on OE/Sonic be the logical next thing to do or first add other topics like Application Server, Replication, Management, etc?

Anyway, any feedback, proposed changes or additions, etc would be GREAT!

Bernard

.

How do you guide someone to self-discover just

exactly how powerful the full

Progress family can be?

Now, THAT is where I like to get your input.

We are trying to do just THAT with the OpenEdge

Tour.

The OpenEdge Tour is packaged in the OpenEdge

Evaluation Kit and as a seperate download on

http://www.psdn.com/library/entry.jspa?entryID=1131

...

The Tour is specifically created for people new to

OpenEdge 10, Architect and ABL, most of the people

active on the PSDN Online forums already have

experience with this, still, I would really

appreciate if you take a look at it and provide

feedback the the existing OpenEdge Tour:

When I open http://www.psdn.com I don't see a direct link "New to Progress" or similar, which briefly explains which tools are available. Suppose I'm new to Progress, how do I know I need to look at the OpenEdge stuff for the 4GL (ABL might not be a clue at all for a technical person). I wasn't able to find the tour without your direct link, so maybe that's something to improve. Also I have to register before I can see the download site features, which is a barrier as well.

Now you might respond with "everything is there", but maybe not everything is there at the right place for a first time visitor.

I like the "New to Progress".

What products we have (with some description" usually resides on www.progress.com and that is where most people would tart if they are totally new, no? The Tour however also explains which products in OE 10.

"Also I have to register before I can see the download site features, which is a barrier as well." I am confused, the tour should NOT require login/registration of any kind, to download the evaluation kit, yes, you need to register before you can download (on purpose, see the discussion previously in this thread). I took a look at how other vendors do this, you also have to register in almost all cases (e.g. with Oracle you first need to become a OTN member before you can download evaluation and/or expresss versions, not ame but similar, maybe there's a way I could have someone register on PSDN Online only once and then make evaluations available once they logged in? Need to check if that's possible).

when you you go to www.psdn.com, you did not not notice the image on the right with "Download the OpenEdge Evaluation Kit and Product Tour"?

so, it's working...

To me, "working" would be defined by customers upgrading and prospects buying. Do you have any metric on that?

I like the "New to Progress".

What products we have (with some description" usually

resides on www.progress.com and that is where most

people would tart if they are totally new, no?

So how would you go from www.progress.com, which is kind of a corporate site, to www.psdn.com, to the product evaluations, if you're new

"Also I have to register before I can see the

download site features, which is a barrier as well."

I am confused, the tour should NOT require

login/registration of any kind, to download the

evaluation kit, yes, you need to register before you

can download (on purpose, see the discussion

previously in this thread).

My mistake, since I intuitively followed the link at the top of the menu stating "Product downloads". You are right about the proper visibility of the tour details when you're not logged in. Maybe you want to add this tour-link to the download site homepage as well....

I took a look at how

other vendors do this, you also have to register in

almost all cases (e.g. with Oracle you first need to

become a OTN member

Yes, that's what I meant, you don't want to be a member of anything, before you know what it is And how reliable is the data somebody enters when he has to say something about the company size, the # of PC's at his site, etc.

when you you go to www.psdn.com, you did not not

notice the image on the right with "Download the

OpenEdge Evaluation Kit and Product Tour"?

No, I didn't. Something I learned in UI-design is the way the mind works: the (western) eye scans the top left area first. So you would expect an important message to be at the top left corner. You can try this for yourself when you add a forum message. While typing and reading the forum message you're entering: the eye seems to be distracted by the big buttons around the edit box, especially with my resolution of 1920x1200 px.

Hope this helps!

Theo (or anyone else), please do me a favor, have a

look at the tour, is that simple enough to get

started?

I downloaded the 64.7 MB tour expecting somekind of multi media file in the zip-archive. Unfortunately the download contained an installation package. Since I don't want to install stuff on my machine, I missed the tour...

I agree.

0) 62MB? What is this? The LOTR trilogy? I hope it's good

1) It was hard to find. Being in the lower right, half "below the fold" on my laptop AND camouflaged didn't help. OTOH I don't have a better idea for where you'd put it. Perhaps a "banner ad"?

2) I'm not going to install yet another bit of crapware just because I clicked on a link. And if I didn't already know and trust PSC I'd be deeply suspicious about why something like this needs to be "installed".

3) It wants administrator privileges to install. Sorry, you lose on principle -- I don't run as adminstrator by default and neither should you. Glutton for punishment that I am I went ahead and gave it the admin password that "it" prompted for. It crashed and burned anyway.

4) Offhand I'm guessing that it doesn't work at all on Linux or a Mac.

5) Ok, I'll buckle and login as administrator.

6) That gets the install process going... Oh look! An EULA! Chock full of ridiculousness ("if the product contains..." How the heck would I know what the product contains?). It even has an embedded NDA -- Heaven forbid anyone evaluating this product should tell anyone else how wonderful it is...

7) So far this has taken 30+ minutes and a full cup of coffee.

8) The README discloses that this requires Flash 7+ and speakers or headphones. It may also trigger unsafe content warnings. IE "preferred" (not by me!). And, as I suspected, it's a Windows only product. It seems like this all should have been revealed on the download page.

9) Oh by the way -- portions ("hands on" exercises) require OE Architect 10.1. It sounds like this is a big emphasis and that you'll really miss out if you don't have OEA installed. If you re-read the download page carefully this isn't actually a contradiction but it sure surprised me.

10) Ok, now it's running (the second cup of coffee is getting low). The intro music has me thinking that I'm at an Exchange Opening General Session. Is Joe about to greet me?

11) How much time should I allocate to this?

The history lesson is interesting. But I'd be curious to know how prospects react to it.

This is looking like a minimum of a 4-5 hour time investment (2 slides of 42, 15+ minutes works out to around 500 minutes... and that's without doing any hands on exercises.) That should be disclosed on the download page as well.

I'm going to have to come back to it when I've got more time. It's a beautiful Autumn Saturday after all

it's build with flash so I could do streaming too, would you like that better (over downloading install) or it should be one of the options?

The reason we have an install is that it also puts sample code in a dir structure (and obviously it's faster if you have all the images, code, pdf, etc on the local system)

Let me put it this way, the ROI is good enough to continue, if not for the leads then for the awareness

So how would you go from www.progress.com, which is kind of a corporate site,

to www.psdn.com, to the product evaluations, if you're new

on the corporate site, go products, go openedge, go psdn, etc. But I get your point, maybe we should start there already with the "roadmap to Progess".

My mistake, since I intuitively followed the link at the top of the menu

stating "Product downloads". You are right about the proper visibility of the tour

details when you're not logged in. Maybe you want to add this tour-link to the

download site homepage as well....

Not your mistake, the menu on top of PSDN has "downloads", when clicking, the landing page should have two big buttons / areas saying "download product evaluations" and "download my licensed products". we can make that clearer, on the list now.

Yes, that's what I meant, you don't want to be a member of anything, before

you know what it is And how reliable is the data somebody enters when he has

to say something about the company size, the # of PC's at his site, etc.

There's really two way companies do evaluations, one, become a member and you get lot's of additional material (incl. evaluations) or register seperately for an evaluation or even whitepapers. For now, we decided that anyone can use psdn online as guest and only for specific things like the evaluations they would have to register. Both models have their pro/con for both, the vendor and guest.

We have some control build in to avoid the mickey.mouse@hotmal.com and alike but can people fake? O sure, we had a couple of those funny as well, are they really CEO and indeed do they have >100.000 PC? But, really, that's a marketing/sales "problem" they like to have.

>No, I didn't. Something I learned in UI-design is the way the mind works: the

(western) eye scans the top left area first. So you would expect an important

message to be at the top left corner. You can try this for yourself when you add

a forum message. While typing and reading the forum message you're entering:

the eye seems to be distracted by the big buttons around the edit box,

especially with my resolution of 1920x1200 px.

Hope this helps!

The UI design is a good point, I am expecting changes moving forward but the eval is also competing with the "what's new", top documents" and the topics on the left. Still, most web sites have evaluations / Try-it on the right top or left in a menu so right and below might not be best location.

yes, it helps, keep it coming, any chance I can motivate you to dowanload and/install the tour?

as an alternative, would you like a streaming version?

I need to look into why you need admin rights, I guess because flash need to be installed. Good sugestion about letting people know how much time each topic takes.

I remember I tried with Opera and Firefox and it worked, obviously the try-it only works with OE Architect installed and that is supported on Windows only. I look into how to make more obvious. Anyone who could try to run the tour on Linux or Mac, I think it should work (except tyr-it an code of course).

as an alternative, would you like a streaming

version?

Yes.

I need to look into why you need admin rights, I

guess because flash need to be installed.

I don't think that Flash was being installed - I didn't see any evidence of that (and I already have it).

Requiring admin rights and putting stuff on people's hard drives is going to seriously limit the success of downloads in locked down corporate environments.

Good sugestion about letting people know how much time

each topic takes.

Thanks. Is it really going to take 4 or 5 hours to get through the whole thing?

I remember I tried with Opera and Firefox and it

worked,

I'm using Firefox and it worked fine. The note strikes me as boilerplate that basically says "we only tested IE". Which, IMHO is crazy. Build for and test FF, Safari & Opera first. Once things are working there then test IE -- you'll save yourself a lot of trouble by not falling into IE's traps and you won't accidentally build an "IE only" web application. Then validate IE as an after thought. It's a lot easier and much more productive than working with IE first

obviously the try-it only works with OE

Architect installed and that is supported on Windows

only.

Which raises an interesting question... why is that? Eclipse isn't a windows-only platform. Why then is OEA?

I look into how to make more obvious.

The more I think about it the more I like my "banner ad" suggestion. You could rotate various "new" things through such a space too.

Anyone who could try to run the tour on Linux or Mac, I

think it should work (except tyr-it an code of

course).

That would be a good reason to have the streaming version.

And a development license for Java (Eclipse, vi, or emacs) is free. So is Microsoft's Visual Studio Express.

Neither have a 60 day time limit.

-gus

Perhaps instead of one mega download, you should offer several options. Then, those which would work on something other than Windows could; those that can work without install would, etc. Make clear what each piece contains and what requirements it has. One of the options can be "get everything", but even then people will be more prepared for what to expect.

0) 62MB? What is this? The LOTR trilogy? I hope

it's good

me too

1) It was hard to find. Being in the lower right,

half "below the fold" on my laptop AND camouflaged

didn't help. OTOH I don't have a better idea for

where you'd put it. Perhaps a "banner ad"?

banner ad is interesting (as we could more with it) but more up and left might be better

2) I'm not going to install yet another bit of

crapware just because I clicked on a link. And if I

didn't already know and trust PSC I'd be deeply

suspicious about why something like this needs to be

"installed".

We're considering a streaming version and splitting the tutorial (code and pdf) from the tour as a separate download. Would that work?

3) It wants administrator privileges to install.

Sorry, you lose on principle -- I don't run as

administrator by default and neither should you.

Glutton for punishment that I am I went ahead and

gave it the admin password that "it" prompted for.

It crashed and burned anyway.

mmm, I didn't know you needed admin rights, we'll look into that

4) Offhand I'm guessing that it doesn't work at all

on Linux or a Mac.

just checked on Opera and Firefox and the tour runs, that is on windows though, I have not tested on Linux or Mac but I suspect that the tour will run. OE Architect is available on windows only so to install the eval and run the code in the try-it mini tutorial obviously not.

5) Ok, I'll buckle and login as administrator.

6) That gets the install process going... Oh look!

An EULA! Chock full of ridiculousness ("if the

product contains..." How the heck would I know what

the product contains?). It even has an embedded NDA

-- Heaven forbid anyone evaluating this product

should tell anyone else how wonderful it is...

sorry, can't avoid that but you have my permission to tell anyone how fantastic it is.

7) So far this has taken 30+ minutes and a full cup

of coffee.

8) The README discloses that this requires Flash 7+

and speakers or headphones. It may also trigger

unsafe content warnings. IE "preferred" (not by

me!). And, as I suspected, it's a Windows only

product. It seems like this all should have been

revealed on the download page.

on the list...

9) Oh by the way -- portions ("hands on" exercises)

require OE Architect 10.1. It sounds like this is a

big emphasis and that you'll really miss out if you

don't have OEA installed. If you re-read the

download page carefully this isn't actually a

contradiction but it sure surprised me.

so, it might trigger someone to download the evaluation kit if they haven't done so already? Good...

10) Ok, now it's running (the second cup of coffee is

getting low). The intro music has me thinking that

I'm at an Exchange Opening General Session. Is Joe

about to greet me?

forgot that, would have been fun, no?

11) How much time should I allocate to this?

That's a good point, what if we tell with each topic how long the topic takes and the expected time for completing the small exercise?

why do I answer the same thing again? Ah, I remember, IE 7 crashed on me and thought it din't get through, SORRY, forget previous...

banner ad is interesting (as we could more with it)

but more up and left might be better

Those dynamic HTML banners are annoying, especially those that float and move while you scroll.

We're considering a streaming version and splitting

the tutorial (code and pdf) from the tour as a

separate download. Would that work?

Yes, that would work. You can watch the video when you want to get an impression of ABL. When you're interested enough, it's OK to download and install a package. I think you have to differentiate your audience:

- want to know what ABL is about --> view the video, view a whitepaper or two, provide links to the online documentation, no downloads/installations

- ready to try it --> download and install the demoware (one download should be enough)

- want to know what's new in the "latest version" --> show a list of features why you want to use the new product

- experienced user that wants to evaluate the "latest product" --> he could go to the download area

The challange will be to find a proper format that is able to cover all products and all readers.

Those dynamic HTML banners are annoying, especially

those that float and move while you scroll.

also true so...

Yes, that would work. You can watch the video when

you want to get an impression of ABL. When you're

interested enough, it's OK to download and install a

package.

ok, I see what's possible with the current system or if changes would need to be made

I think you have to differentiate your

audience:

yes but it's hard though, to do it right you would potentially create a huge amount of material to suit everyones needs. Our primary audience for the Tour was existing customers not familiar with OE 10 yet, second audience was anyone new to OpenEdge. It means you sometimes need to compromise. For example, the Tour contains a few topics where we touch on the ABL, yes, we do have "DISPLAY "Hello World!"." and even 'FOR EACH customer..." but even for existing customers, it's not so bad to remind them about the tight integration between logic and data (which other vendors still try to figur out to put all in one language) and let's not forget UI (with new stuf coming down the road as you know)

- want to know what ABL is about --> view the video,

view a whitepaper or two, provide links to the online

documentation, no downloads/installations

yes, sounds like a mini roadmap, I like it.

- ready to try it --> download and install the

demoware (one download should be enough)

thought about that, the kit contains all right now, so the product eval, the tour and the try-it, big download with the potential to even get bigger.

I am doing a survey right now with people who used.

One person said they just downloaded to test if their customized v9 ADM2 app would still run, they downloaded, tested (of course it runs) and now upgraded. They didn't look at the tour because that was not their interest (at that moment), making a decission to upgrade was.

Another just downloaded the Tour first, that convinced him to take some web based training to learn more about some of the latest & greatest, he now downloaded the eval to pratice/prototype some.

What if we split in such a way there would be a roadmap where everytime you go to a next level of more detail. "would you like to know more about xyz? click here" and "do you want to try yourself xyz, click here to download the eval, click here for the tutorial, click here for a xyz specific web based training". More detail behind this of course but I'll hope you get my point.

- want to know what's new in the "latest version" -->

show a list of features why you want to use the new

product

that's a good sugestion, should we do it per version (e.g. what's new in OE 10 campared to V9) or per sub version (e.g. what's new in 10.0A, 10.0B, 10.1A, 10.1B). But, each version also has a what's new in the documentation, would that be enough and just focus on latest so compare v9 with 10.1B for a tour alike? Or is maybe a recorded presentation together with the what's new per version enough?

- experienced user that wants to evaluate the "latest

product" --> he could go to the download area

The challange will be to find a proper format that is

able to cover all products and all readers.

I know, we're trying to figur that out for next year as we speak so for all your feedback, the timing is perfect...

Bernard

What if we split in such a way there would be a roadmap where everytime you go to a next level of more detail. "would you like to know more about xyz? click here" and "do you want to try yourself xyz, click here to download the eval, click here for the tutorial, click here for a xyz specific web based training". More detail behind this of course but I'll hope you get my point.

I don't think it should be a decision tree, but rather a roadmap, i.e., up front people should be able to see what is available and choose what they are going to look at.

let's talk about that, how would such a roadmap look like? Can you give me an example, maybe point me to a site that looks like that?

I don't know that I know an example, but I also don't think it is very complicated. Think in terms of a series of bulleted items in the logical order that you might expect people to look at them if they were new to Progress. Perhaps there are nested bullets for the videos one per piece. Each "bullet" has a keyword associated with it to catch the eye like "Watch" and "Try". For each bullet there is a short desciption and a set of links. The links are Read More, Download Now, Requirements. The description includes a mention of how long it should take. The Download Now says how big it is. The Read More link goes to a page with more info which probably includes the requirements.

yep, we're thinking along the same lines.

Any additional ideas or samples, let me know...

And a development license for Java (Eclipse, vi, or emacs) is free. So is Microsoft's

Visual Studio Express.

Neither have a 60 day time limit.

Assuming this isn't a good cop bad cop routine or something else.

Just this little thing could make alot of peoples life so much eaiser and change their attitude towards this company.

Message was edited by:

Alon Blich

How about a fully-functional Provision, that only works with "demo" stand-alone db's, not with stock PSC db's?

This way people could put the code through it's paces in a stand-alone environment, and when they want to go multi-user or use standard PSC db's, they could purchase the 'real' product.

What would distinguish a "demo" DB?

And a development license for Java (Eclipse, vi, or

emacs) is free. So is Microsoft's

Visual Studio Express.

Neither have a 60 day time limit.

Assuming this isn't a good cop bad cop routine or

something else.

Gus is always the good cop

And, if I gave you the impression that I think that the 60 days evaluations is the answer to everything I did a poor job. The Evaluation Kit has a specific purpose but if you now want to start evaluating and learning OE 10 (and don't have a license you can upgrade or PSDN subscription), we do have the Evaluation Kit.

Just this little thing could make alot of peoples

life so much eaiser and change their attitude towards

this company.

point taken

Message was edited by:

Alon Blich

I have to say that you and the talks I've had with some of the guys in Progress or that have worked in Progress have been very refreshing, professional and encouraging.

But for one you've got a trigger happy forum admin that really puts off someone from participating, helping etc. I've found that the people who are most out spoken are usually the ones who are the most, invested, passionate and knowledgeable and have to most offer, and I have always found that forums who aren't controlled (especially about what opinions they'd like and what opinions they wouldn't ?!) are much better, unless they start getting violent, and even then, things just have a way of working themselves out and again they usually involve the people who are the most passionate and invested.

Although not everyone agrees, I think that we have alot to offer and if the company wouldn't fight against us and treat us like freeloaders we would be the ones pushing it to our universities (we could certainly take care of all o/s, networking, database etc. setup maybe even better then tech support), use it for projects, participate in forums and the community, and to our clients over other languages (like I said, a few thousand bucks have never really been a problem to any clients I've worked for). Just give us a chance.

Alon,

Your recent posts were deleted because they did not comply with PSDN standards. As per my previous email, it is my job is to ensure that the PSDN forums provide a constructive collaborative environment that encourages all members of the Progress community to interact and share their knowledge and experiences in a positive and encouraging way.

We value everyone's opinion including yours. And we are always willing to accept constructive criticism. But we request that everyone express their opinions and criticisms in a professional way. Posts that do not comply with these PSDN standards will be deleted. If you feel you've been censored, you are welcome to repost your thoughts but in accordance with PSDN standards.

I encourage you to continue to provide constructive feedback via the PSDN forums. We are listening and we want to help the community.

Regards,

Phillip Magnay

OK, sometimes it's easy to forget that you're talking about real people and not a big faceless corporation.

IMVHO even if this is a very professional type forum, a single maybe private warning would be more appropriate and would work better.

It was nice talking to you, bye for now

Message was edited by:

Alon Blich