ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow

Posted by DivyaTheja on 08-Jul-2015 04:41

A whitepaper on ABLUnit testing framework describing an end to end scenario to is available at https://community.progress.com/community_groups/openedge_development/m/documents/2260.aspx.


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All Replies

Posted by Jean Richert on 08-Jul-2015 04:45

Great whitepaper. Thanks for letting our community users know.

Posted by Rom Elwell on 08-Jul-2015 06:12

Fantastic!  Thank you very much for this much needed resource.

Posted by Richard.Kelters on 08-Jul-2015 10:58

Thank you very much!

Posted by Lieven De Foor on 09-Jul-2015 10:02

While I applaud the work that has gone into this, I wonder why the examples are still purely procedural based, while OpenEdge supports OO for more than 10 years now...

Posted by DivyaTheja on 10-Jul-2015 02:34

Thank you Lieven for your feedback. The end to end flow and the process will be same for both Procedures and Classes, we have chosen Procedures. If you are looking for any specific scenario using classes, we will try to provide an example.

Posted by Lieven De Foor on 10-Jul-2015 04:41

Hi Divya,

I'm sure you've had your reasons to chose the procedural approach, but to me it seems like Progress is stuck in the past, and doesn't want to educate its long-time users to the OO-way of working. Sure there's lots of procedural code out there, but that doesn't make it right to write white papers in 2015 still using that approach, showing screenshots of classic 4gl frames. You say it yourself that the process to write unit tests is practically the same for classes, then why not directly use them as an example?

I keep thinking that Progress tries to scare away developers that come from another modern OO language,  by throwing in all these old-style code. ABL code can be modern, but please show it to the outside world...

Posted by Mike Fechner on 10-Jul-2015 04:45

Couldn’t have been said any better!!!
Progress white papers and documentation must be OO first. It’s indeed almost 2016…
 
Sticking on procedural code in white papers and documentation makes OO-ABL look like an half-hearted approach.
 
 

 

Posted by TheMadDBA on 10-Jul-2015 06:09

Wow.... I find myself defending PSC twice in the same week :-)

While it would be nice to have an OO version of this whitepaper... we have to keep in mind that the vast majority (really really vast) of Progress shops are still writing/maintaining procedural code.

I am just happy the code is actually using NO-UNDO (in some places at least)... and mildly upset that NO-LOCK still isn't showing up in sample code.

Posted by Mike Fechner on 10-Jul-2015 06:12

Procedural code can (and should) also be tested by class based tests.
 
 
 
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Reply by TheMadDBA

Wow.... I find myself defending PSC twice in the same week :-)

While it would be nice to have an OO version of this whitepaper... we have to keep in mind that the vast majority (really really vast) of Progress shops are still writing/maintaining procedural code.

I am just happy the code is actually using NO-UNDO (in some places at least)... and mildly upset that NO-LOCK still isn't showing up in sample code.

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Posted by TheMadDBA on 10-Jul-2015 06:44

Most Progress users aren't comfortable switching between OO and procedural.  Most have never even seen OO in any language.

I think sometimes we fall into the trap where we interact with a smaller circle of advanced users and think that they represent the Progress user base as a whole.

It would be nice to see both approaches available (especially to help users compare the differences) but I understand why PSC does procedural first.

Posted by Jeff Ledbetter on 10-Jul-2015 07:18

 
But you were still able to understand examples though, right?
 
A white-paper is for education and not for marketing. The “outside world” is never going to read it.
 
When writing a white-paper, I believe that the approach is the broadest reach of your target audience.  It’s guaranteed that everyone will understand the procedural approach while not everyone would understand the OO approach.
 
Jeff Ledbetter
skype: jeff.ledbetter
 
[collapse]
From: Lieven De Foor [mailto:bounce-lievendefoormipsbe@community.progress.com]
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 4:42 AM
To: TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Subject: RE: [Technical Users - OE Development] ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by Lieven De Foor

Hi Divya,

I'm sure you've had your reasons to chose the procedural approach, but to me it seems like Progress is stuck in the past, and doesn't want to educate its long-time users to the OO-way of working. Sure there's lots of procedural code out there, but that doesn't make it right to write white papers in 2015 still using that approach, showing screenshots of classic 4gl frames. You say it yourself that the process to write unit tests is practically the same for classes, then why not directly use them as an example?

I keep thinking that Progress tries to scare away developers that come from another modern OO language,  by throwing in all these old-style code. ABL code can be modern, but please show it to the outside world...

Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

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Posted by Mike Fechner on 10-Jul-2015 07:29

Hi Jeff, that’s not 100% right!
 
I’ve been involved in modernization assessments at Progress partners. And it always causes a lot of discussion if Progress is modern enough for modernizing that ERP system in question. And you may have to debate with architects hired by the Partner to guide them through the modernization. Those folks may look at those whitepapers to understand what’s possible and what’s best practice (and of course they only fly over the WP).
 
They look are white papers in the damn procedural first approach and because of that they put in question that OpenEdge is modern enough for the modernization. Because if the author of the white paper (Progress Software, not an individual) does not believe in the most modern features as best practice OO-ABL can’t be ready for prime time ….
Did cost me hours and hours and hours to convince them of the opposite  ….

Posted by Mike Fechner on 10-Jul-2015 07:32

Aren’t those shops that are all procedural also suffering because they don’t find young programmers?
 
It’s time to make the shift – for NEW CODE.
 
Unit Tests are NEW CODE.
Von: TheMadDBA [mailto:bounce-TheMadDBA@community.progress.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Juli 2015 13:45
An: TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Betreff: RE: [Technical Users - OE Development] ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by TheMadDBA

Most Progress users aren't comfortable switching between OO and procedural.  Most have never even seen OO in any language.

I think sometimes we fall into the trap where we interact with a smaller circle of advanced users and think that they represent the Progress user base as a whole.

It would be nice to see both approaches available (especially to help users compare the differences) but I understand why PSC does procedural first.

Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

Posted by Jeff Ledbetter on 10-Jul-2015 07:34

 
Of course there will be exceptions. Nothing is 100% except death, taxes, and Lucy pulling the ball away.
 
Jeff Ledbetter
skype: jeff.ledbetter
 
[collapse]
From: Mike Fechner [mailto:bounce-mikefechner@community.progress.com]
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 7:31 AM
To: TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Subject: [Technical Users - OE Development] AW: ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by Mike Fechner
Hi Jeff, that’s not 100% right!
 
I’ve been involved in modernization assessments at Progress partners. And it always causes a lot of discussion if Progress is modern enough for modernizing that ERP system in question. And you may have to debate with architects hired by the Partner to guide them through the modernization. Those folks may look at those whitepapers to understand what’s possible and what’s best practice (and of course they only fly over the WP).
 
They look are white papers in the damn procedural first approach and because of that they put in question that OpenEdge is modern enough for the modernization. Because if the author of the white paper (Progress Software, not an individual) does not believe in the most modern features as best practice OO-ABL can’t be ready for prime time ….
Did cost me hours and hours and hours to convince them of the opposite  ….
Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

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Posted by Jeff Ledbetter on 10-Jul-2015 07:38

 
Yes, but if a great majority of your customers are writing procedural code, why should they be excluded on the hope that the magical “young programmer” is going to choose his career path over a white-paper. J
 
I suppose the best thing is to provide examples of both.
 
Writing white-papers is not the easiest thing in the world. You have to find a happy medium.
 
Jeff Ledbetter
skype: jeff.ledbetter
 
[collapse]
From: Mike Fechner [mailto:bounce-mikefechner@community.progress.com]
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 7:34 AM
To: TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Subject: [Technical Users - OE Development] AW: ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by Mike Fechner
Aren’t those shops that are all procedural also suffering because they don’t find young programmers?
 
It’s time to make the shift – for NEW CODE.
 
Unit Tests are NEW CODE.
Von: TheMadDBA [mailto:bounce-TheMadDBA@community.progress.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Juli 2015 13:45
An: TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Betreff: RE: [Technical Users - OE Development] ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by TheMadDBA

Most Progress users aren't comfortable switching between OO and procedural.  Most have never even seen OO in any language.

I think sometimes we fall into the trap where we interact with a smaller circle of advanced users and think that they represent the Progress user base as a whole.

It would be nice to see both approaches available (especially to help users compare the differences) but I understand why PSC does procedural first.

Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

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Posted by Mike Fechner on 10-Jul-2015 07:41

Both is o.k.. But OO must be first. Or we give in that all the development $$$ spent at Progress into OO was a waste and not an investment in the future.
Von: Jeff Ledbetter [mailto:bounce-jeffledbetter@community.progress.com]
Gesendet: Freita
g, 10. Juli 2015 14:40
An: TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Betreff: RE: [Technical Users - OE Development] AW: ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by Jeff Ledbetter
 
Yes, but if a great majority of your customers are writing procedural code, why should they be excluded on the hope that the magical “young programmer” is going to choose his career path over a white-paper. J
 
I suppose the best thing is to provide examples of both.
 
Writing white-papers is not the easiest thing in the world. You have to find a happy medium.
 
Jeff Ledbetter
skype: jeff.ledbetter
 
[collapse]
From: Mike Fechner [mailto:bounce-mikefechner@community.progress.com]
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 7:34 AM
To:
TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Subject: [Technical Users - OE Development] AW: ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by Mike Fechner
Aren’t those shops that are all procedural also suffering because they don’t find young programmers?
 
It’s time to make the shift – for NEW CODE.
 
Unit Tests are NEW CODE.
 
Von: TheMadDBA [mailto:bounce-TheMadDBA@community.progress.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Juli 2015 13:45
An: TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Betreff: RE: [Technical Users - OE Development] ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by TheMadDBA

Most Progress users aren't comfortable switching between OO and procedural.  Most have never even seen OO in any language.

I think sometimes we fall into the trap where we interact with a smaller circle of advanced users and think that they represent the Progress user base as a whole.

It would be nice to see both approaches available (especially to help users compare the differences) but I understand why PSC does procedural first.

Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

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Posted by TheMadDBA on 10-Jul-2015 08:00

Do you really think a perceived lack of OO has anything to do with young programmers not embracing Progress?

My experience shows it is a mix of never having heard of Progress in the first place or noticing that there are quite a few more jobs out there for java, .NET, PL/SQL, etc.

Again... I am not saying that people should not embrace OO where it makes sense. I am not even saying that PSC shouldn't provide OO examples/whitepapers. I am saying I understand why they tend to focus on procedural examples.

Posted by Mike Fechner on 10-Jul-2015 08:04

I’ve seen shops that hired young folks and they left after a few weeks because they realized it’s all procedural stuff. So it truly happens!
 
 
Von: TheMadDBA [mailto:bounce-TheMadDBA@community.progress.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Juli 2015 15:01
An: TU.OE.Development@community.progress.com
Betreff: RE: [Technical Users - OE Development] ABLUnit Testing - End to end flow
 
Reply by TheMadDBA

Do you really think a perceived lack of OO has anything to do with young programmers not embracing Progress?

My experience shows it is a mix of never having heard of Progress in the first place or noticing that there are quite a few more jobs out there for java, .NET, PL/SQL, etc.

Again... I am not saying that people should not embrace OO where it makes sense. I am not even saying that PSC shouldn't provide OO examples/whitepapers. I am saying I understand why they tend to focus on procedural examples.

Stop receiving emails on this subject.

Flag this post as spam/abuse.

Posted by TheMadDBA on 10-Jul-2015 08:17

I am sure it happens from time to time. I just think if you polled the average college graduate about languages they have heard about... Progress would not be near the top of the list.

Posted by Lieven De Foor on 13-Jul-2015 04:12

It's good to see that I've started some discussion.

I think it's important for Progress to realize that, although many existing OpenEdge developers are (only) used to procedural development, if Progress wants to stay in the game they should evolve and move the focus from the old-school to the new-school.

I'm still waiting for the moment in a PUG challenge keynote speech where the speaker doesn't emphasize the fact that a lot of attendees are using Progress for 10/20/30 years, but ask the question how many of them are new to Progress in the last couple of months/years. That number would be less encouraging if you ask me...

At our company we're also struggling to find new (young) developers willing to start programming in ABL. The image of the language is the major turnoff factor here. Luckily the (older and young) people we currently have are ambitious enough to use and experiment with new features in the language to try and modernize our applications...

Posted by agent_008_nl on 13-Jul-2015 05:27

Besides that important issue there are a couple of others, pricing being a very important one. I've heard of this issue first hand of dutch customers. I would not consider learning progress again if I were to start all over again because of job uncertainty.

Posted by Lieven Cardoen on 14-Jul-2015 01:28

I would certainly learn progress, just as I've learned Prolog. It broadens my perspective. That being said, you guys at Progress, do you still use Commodore 64 computers?

This thread is closed