Infragistics Controls

If you look under Special Offers, there is a 30-day trial for the controls...

Looks like they don't come included in PSDN, but come at some additional price...

As far as I know you can develop applications with the PSDN license and deploy them. If the ultracontrols wouldn't have to be payed for when using the PSDN license that would mean you can use the ultracontrols without ever paying for a license fee. I'm sure Infragistics wouldn't like that. So the only way the PSDN license could include license codes for the UltraControls would be that you have to pay for it (indirectly), even if you don't use it.

OK so how do we buy them and where and how much do they cost?

Hi Thomas, where did you find that link?

It's still located in the 3party directory so I think it must be possible to install a trial to get things started...

At the bottom of the product list under "PSDN Professional Update Kit 2008.4KU"

Thanks, I would never ever have found it...

You have to be kidding me that we are going to have to pay extra to get the controls.

That's my exact reaction when I speak to the salesrep!

From my rep:

The list for a 1-User is $675.00 for Registered Client or Named User.

and from Kristen:

and $1,125 for concurrent user.

Ouch.

Not sure how one does concurrent user, but ... the real point is that it should absolutely have been in the SDK.

and $995 if you buy it from infragistics ...

Makes me curious whether the controls from the beta will stop working when the beta ends ...

You must uninstall the Beta before installing the FCS version and you will not be able to uninstall the Beta without also uninstalling the Beta version of the controls.

And let me be very clear. If you somehow figure out a way to get around this then you will be violating the terms of the Beta.

I'm very surprised and disappointed that such a tactic would even be considered.

On another topic, OpenEdge fully understood that some customers may wish to purchase controls directly from Infragistics, just as they might wish to purchase from any third-party vendor. However if you do purchase directly from Infragistics then you should expect to get your technical support and maintenance from Infragistics as well.

Can't you take a little ribbing?

Seriously, though, the idea of having to purchase these controls separately seems to me to violate the whole concept of the SDK. To be sure, if I have an immediate need to use the controls then $675 isn't much per developer seat, but if I just want to fiddle around and possible create a proof of concept for a prospect, then that is not so friendly. Even including them with a provision that they couldn't be used for a deployed application without purchasing a separate license would be fine.

So we are paying top dollar for a PSDN Premier SDK that includes everything (edit: ...we need to do our development work) except the Ultra Controls. And we have to pay an additional $675 extra per user. I must say I am a bit disappointed...

Message was edited by:

Simon de Kraa

Is it true, that the UltraControls from Progress can only be used within OpenEdge Developer?

Also, the Infragistics NetAdvantage Controls include:

"This product includes all controls, subscription services, updates, upgrades and new product releases for one year and C# source code for all Windows Forms and WPF controls and designers."

Sourcecode sounds interesting, right?

AFAIK Infragistics does not offer product updates or a maintenance contract. So you need to renew the purchase every year to stay current. That's something you need to consider as well.

I asked PSC Cologne for confirmation if I really need to buy the controls and if so, for a quote. They could not give me a statement yet. It would at least be nice to know the real status on this.

includes everything except the Ultra Controls.

I wish. There are a lot of other PSC products which it should include too, but that isn't appropriate to this thread.

Is it true, that the UltraControls from Progress can only be used within OpenEdge Developer?

From what I think I remember hearing previously, the limitation is that they are licensed only for use with ABL applications, i.e., it is a violation of the license to use them with a .NET front end. For that, you would need to go to Infragistics. But, if you wanted to do the code development without OEA, I can't see that being controlled.

Source code might sound interesting to you, but I'd rather not get anywhere near it!

If Infragistics doesn't offer updates and maintenance, then it is an interesting question what it is that PSC is selling maintenance on it for. Does Infragistics really come out with a new version once a year and force everyone to buy a new copy with no discount? I can see that for a product that costs $29.95, but not one that costs $675 or $995.

I have been told that if one buys the controls from PSC, then one can call PSC for support, but if one buys from Infragistics, one can't. Of course, one might wonder whether the PSC support will be meaningful on the controls themselves.

I have been told that if one buys the controls from

PSC, then one can call PSC for support, but if one

buys from Infragistics, one can't. Of course, one

might wonder whether the PSC support will be

meaningful on the controls themselves.

Well, during the beta they have already been quite good! (Thank you guys, if you are reading this).

And never the less, they don't need to be top experts, but as long as they deal with interoperability issues - then they have to get back to Infragistics and don't leave us with the fight with to tech support organizations to find the cauch for an issue.

Sounds like a clear argument for support from PSC!

But I need facts. I need a price, details about maintenance agreement (and commitment of keeping current with IGs releases) and if they are included in the PSDN shipment or not to make a decision.

No having a PSDN subscription, I am in a slightly different position. Order has been placed ...

To be sure, I can see a role for PSC, especially on the interoperability issues, but my question is that one normally pays 18% for maintenance and gets both tech support and entitlement to free upgrades.

Yes - that's what counts. For all kind of "how to" questions, you can use the Infragistics forum free of any charge.

I like the expiration date!

Product Name: OE Ultra Controls .NET

Installation Date: Thu Nov 20 18:27:11 2008

User Limit: 1

Expiration Date: 12/31/2010

Version Number: 10.2A

Machine Class: KB

Port Number: 31

Why do you like that it even has an expiration date? No other PSC licenses do, except eval ones. Unless, of course, that was the expiration date for the free trial in the SDK.

Doesn't this mean I can use the 30-Day trial a bit longer than that? (edit: only technically speaking of course... )

OT: My PSDN license has an expiration date... At least for the 10.2A PSDN update it does...

Message was edited by:

Simon de Kraa

I guess not... See attachment...

So, this expiration date was for the 30 day free trial? That would be super! I get that the SDK has an expiration date since it is a subscription ... our own version of SaaS.

That's curious. So, if one is a compulsive programmer that works through weekends ... not that there is anyone like that on this board .... it isn't even a 30 day trial.

Yes, it's a 30-day trial with an expiration date of 31/12/2010 that will expire after 20 usage day(s) or 10 calendar weeks...

From PSC via my rep about the $675 Infragistics license:

"According to Product Management, maintenance on the Ultra Controls add-on product from Progress will include new releases at no additional cost. Progress Tech Support will provide support for the add-on product."

Hi, A statement regarding this topic has been sent to Beta participants by Rob Holzel.

For those who did not participate to the beta, the answer is that Ultra Controls for .Net are sold separately, and that you should contact your sales rep for information (licence fees, etc.).

Anything in particular you think we should be getting from that statement? It seemed to me that the only "news" in it related to this discussion isn't news at all, i.e., that the copy we have for the beta is under special license terms and needs to get uninstalled. That is pretty obvious given the nature of the beta.

And, we have known all along that the Infragistics controls would be sold as a separate product. We didn't know they would be excluded from the PSDN SDK and we didn't know what they were going to cost. Now we know that. And, now we also appear to know that the 18% maintenance will give us upgrades just like other Progress products, unlike what I gather is Infragistics normal way of doing business with people who buy direct.

I tried to get a quote and replies from my local Progress office since the beginning of this week... No

No price is available for Germany yet. No answer if it's included in a psdn shipment (they still try to get that info theirselves) - well the answer sounds obvious now. But I'm missing the clear and doubtless NO.

The current Infragistics Version shipped by PSC is 2008.1 - IG sells 2008.3. A commitment that some 2009.x version will be sold with a 10.2B is also important for a purchase decision.

None of these question is answered in the mail from Kristen/Rob.

I've been talking to another German beta customer today. He swiped the creditcard at www.infragistics.com because he also got no reply from the reps...

Can't help you with German pricing until they publish a new price sheet. It does seem clear that the PSDN shipment only has the "30 day" free trial version.

I think we can count on the PSC version lagging the Infragistics direct version on a more or less permanent basis ... no different than keeping up with Eclipse versions. The interesting piece is the apparent contrast between what you say is the Infragistics direct approach of no maintenance and no upgrades versus the traditional Progress maintenance and entitlement to upgrades. The statement I published earlier today indicates that the PSC version will include upgrades. Now, I wouldn't expect those to happen until PSC version changes. I.e., during 10.2B beta they will test some Infragistics version, probably what was current some time prior to the start of the beta when the in-house alpha testing started. Then, when 10.2B ships, the controls will also be updated. I would be surprised to have them upgraded with a service pack.

My lingering concern is that 2009.x will be considered a different product than 2008.x and thus not just an upgrade. But, we'll see.

Despite the various rude remarks that get posted about sales reps, mine is a pretty straight up kind of guy and he is pretty good at going back to product managers and the like to get the straight info in response to questions like these, so I feel pretty confident in his information, as far as it goes.

I tried to get a quote and replies from my local

Progress office since the beginning of this week...

No

No price is available for Germany yet. No answer if

it's included in a psdn shipment (they still try to

get that info theirselves) - well the answer sounds

obvious now. But I'm missing the clear and doubtless

NO.

Same here. No information yet about availability, upgrading and pricing...

So obviously an European problem... Disappointing - considering the fact that many of the active beta testers came from Europe.

Let me make it clear, that I wouldn't have a problem per-se if I need to buy the controls. But I'd like to know a price etc. first.

One needs to recognize that PSC is a complex entity, world wide, with wholly owned subsidiaries and distributors and all manner of things between Bedford and the customer. I was amazed to see the international collection of price lists with many different lists for Europe, all in English and all in Euro. I haven't compared them, but their mere existence suggests something of the complexity of the channel.

But, it does seem like something one can work out in advance ...

But, it does seem like something one can work out in

advance ...

Indeed - in the end the release of 10.2a (cooked for much longer than two years) shouldn't have been that much of a surprise to the sales organization.

I always thought that salesreps - especially just a week away from the end of the fiscal year - wouldn't like anything more, than selling licenses of new released products to an exisiting customer.

I do not understand your reactions. You can buy Infragistics components directly from any vendors, you can aswell download them from any sites and have a try period.

It is the same with any other component providers for .Net (Telerik, ComponentOne, DevExpress, ...).

So the trial phase is not an issue, the version neither, you can download IG 2008Q3 from componentsource.com for eg.

It is true that the maintenance fees are different in .Net world (for eg for IG it is around 33%), but i am not sure that PSC will be able to make something drastically different AFA Infragistics is concerned. And one should notice that maintenance fees give immediate and free access for new versions of the product. One finally should know that this is a nive advantage as component providers deliver new and richer releases at least twice a year. This should be compared to maintenance fees from Pe only comparable scheme is PSDN but the price is also different from normal maintenance.

And now that you are given a whole lot of new components, you should give them a try.

For eg., direct link to Infragistics 2008Q3 : http://www.componentsource.com/products/infragistics-netadvantage-win-client/index-eur.html

I do not understand your reactions. You can buy

Infragistics components directly from any vendors,

you can aswell download them from any sites and have

a "30day" try.

But you won't get them with support from PSC when you buy at www.infragistics.com - that makes it a >substantially

During the beta phase, they often mentioned, that they'll >try

But as long as my salesrep has no clarification, I'm hanging in the air. Important part of the equasion are missing, before I can decide if it would be an advantage for me to buy from PSC or IG.

It is the same with any other component providers for

.Net (Telerik, ComponentOne, DevExpress, ...).

Technically it should be able to use them (sooner or later), but if there's an issue we might need to talk to two different support organizations with two different release and service pack cycles.

The whole idea behind PSC selling the IG Controls is to avoid that.

So the trial phase is not an issue, the version

neither, you can download IG 2008Q3 from

componentsource.com for eg.

They are only available for a limited time (trial restriction). My current impression is, that it might be risky to count on these 30 days and hope for the availbility of a price for the European market once those 30 days have passed.

It is true that the maintenance fees are different in

.Net world, but i am not sure that PSC will be able

to make something drastically different AFA

Infragistics is concerned.

See letter from Kristen/Rob.

And now that you are given a whole lot of new

components, you should give them a try.

I already did! And I will continue to do so. But for the IG controls, I see a big benefit in getting them from my friends at PSC.

Hi mike, in my belief i don't think they are going to deliver a different product than from what IG normally sells.

It would be commercially destructive for PSC, as they indicate that they are, with 10.2A, compatible with .Net on the UI side. It would be technically a nightmare and not such a good opportunity for developpers as they will not get latest version from the vendors.

But it is a pity that PSC is not ready when the 10.2A is released. Very strange for me. It is still a several hundreds people wide company.

Mike has already covered some issues, but let me throw in a couple more. The PSC price, at least here, is $675 compared with what I believe was reported to be $995 from Infragistics.

Versions do matter, although that can be frustrating. What has been tested with 10.2A is the version that ships with 10.2A. It was probably the version which was shipping from Infragistics when 10.2A got to pre-beta. While the goal of 10.2A is compatibility with any .NET control, we have seen during beta that we aren't quite there yet. At the least, any control that uses generics won't work. I'll bet there are some other gotchas out there too simply because they haven't all been tested. So, probably later versions of Infragistics might also work with 10.2A, but maybe not. If they move to generics, then certainly not.

Also, per the information I posted earlier, the 18% maintenance from PSC is not only paying for tech support, but it appears that it will also cover version upgrades. If that is something Infragistics doesn't offer, then that is a big incentive since it means that one isn't having to rebuy them once a year.

All of this has also pointed out to me one of the downsides of ABL GUI for .NET and that is that one not only has to deal with updating ABL code on all the clients, but one has to deal with updating the .NET controls. One isn't typically going to want to do that multiple times per year as new versions of the controls are released, so I expect most shops will be perfectly happy to stick with one version for a while.

All of this has also pointed out to me one of the

downsides of ABL GUI for .NET and that is that one

not only has to deal with updating ABL code on all

the clients, but one has to deal with updating the

.NET controls. One isn't typically going to want to

do that multiple times per year as new versions of

the controls are released, so I expect most shops

will be perfectly happy to stick with one version for

a while.

Deploying .NET controls is not such a hell. First of all, they are deployed version (and vendor and language) aware. So a client PC can have multiple versions of the same assembly installed. Microsoft did a lot to get rid of the dll hell from the Active X history. So we can have a 2008.1 and 2008.3 version of the same file on the same machine.

An ideal Progress application (let's say Dynamics ) can be deployed using the WebClient. The WebClient is now able to install .NET assemblies. It simply imports the assemblies.xml file and ships the required assemblies. Sounds easy enough.

I had a number of minor issues with the Infragistics Controls that shipped with the TP releases(2006.?). Those were resolved by switching to the 2008.1. So keeping relatively close to the IG releases may be required.

Assuming that Progress does not upgrade the Controls in a service pack and assuming further more, that 10.2B will be released in 12 months from now with an Infragistics release from mid of next year (so a 2009.1 or 2009.2). That sounds acceptable - but until the day 10.2B gets released, we are more than 1.5 years behind Infragistics release cycle. That may be acceptable. But not, if Progress will wait for the next major release after 10.2B to upgrade the controls...

(all these date and release cycles are 100% assumptions and just based on my personal experience and estimates!)

I already did! And I will continue to do so. But for

the IG controls, I see a big benefit in getting them

from my friends at PSC.

Same here. I will buy from PSC and stick to the recommended version to have full support and maintenance and avoid compatibility issues. Just like I will always use the recommended OS, Java version etc. I think most customers will do the same.

An ideal Progress application (let's say Dynamics

) can be deployed using the WebClient. The WebClient

is now able to install .NET assemblies. It simply

imports the assemblies.xml file and ships the

required assemblies. Sounds easy enough.

Yes, I don't see any problems with the deployment using WebClient now it is enhanced to deal with the .NET framework and controls. Did you already test this?

Did you already test this?

Just last week when preparing a training for PSC Cologne... Worked o.k. (but this is supposed to be my disappointed thread - because nobody could tell me how to get the controls last week).

From my salesrep: (the Netherlands)

- It's a 3rd party product and not included in PSDN

- Pricing is €1.280 per concurrent user and €770 per named user

How about that for an exchange rate...

How about that for an exchange rate...

Looks bad at first sight, but how about maintenance? IG has 100% annual maintenance (not for the first year), Progress probably 18%.

Yay! got my control codes for UltraControl ! Time to install and start working for a change ...

During this week, I finally got the prices as well from my German sales rep and I was able to order.

Still a shame, that it took that long. Well, at least not as long as the first PSDN shipment after 10.1C beta...

How do they compare to the pricing in the Netherlands?

Absolutely the same.